USER OBSERVATIONS Last updated: 8 January 2007

Subject:	DS-2102 and Autostar
Sent:	Friday, January 5, 2007 08:58:52
From:	George Ioannidis (giwrgosioannidis@googlemail.com)
Thank you for your nice site. It has been a great help for me.
 
Below are some information about this model (DS2102) and of course some
questions, and I hope that will help other members of the group. It
looks like they sold a lot of them during Christmas.

I want to say that I have access to some great telescopes from the same
brand (Meade LX 16") so I am not biased in any way.

I have recently purchase a Meade DS-2102 Telescope from the Telescope
Planet in UK. It has been bought after their recommendation and I
thought that Meade would not put their name in a product that is crap.
It is a 4" refractor with the new DS mount and Autostar 497 controller.
It looks like to be a discontinued model that it doesn't even exist in
the Meade's website but the price was right and I was looking for a grab
and go telescope. The Autostar came loaded with the V43.Ea Version. The
telescope looks like to have an on board memory and clock chip (On the
telescope, not on the Autostar controller) as when you switch on the
power the Autostar loads Time, Date, Site and Telescope Model from the
memory. Inside the telescope there is a small battery that supplies
power to the internal clock. The telescope as it came had a terrible
tracking and a lot of play in the mount. You had more chances to find
something in the sky with you eyes than with the goto. After the usually
mechanical treat (disassembly  clean  tight screws - adjusts nuts etc.)
I have manage to minimize the play on the mount but not to eliminate it.
Next was the tracking problem. Even after the entire mechanical slope
has been minimized the telescope didn't want to track properly. I have
train the motors according to your recommendations and there was a small
improvement but I didn't had a way to check the values of the trained
motors. I have loaded your patch kit V43.Ed and there you are. Now I can
check what is going on. After training again and checking the values I
had a set of good average values that I have insert them to Autostar
manually. I have also made a cable to supply power to the Autostar
controller from the USB port of my laptop  very handy when you upload
new software. Now a strange think: Your patch is supposed to add
additional telescope models and I was especially interested in the
German equatorial one. When I was looking for it when the Autostar was
connected to the telescope I couldn't find it. Today I have connected
the Autostar direct in the laptop and had a look in the telescope models
it was there but my existing model (DS2102) wasn't. It looks like that
there are 2 sets of telescope models  One in the Autostar and the other
on the mount memory. The one on the mount memory supersede the one in
the Autostar. And the question is it possible to have both sets? Or even
better to be able to choose which ones you want? How you can access the
on board memory?

More about the telescope:

If you are a beginner and you do not have engineer, electronic and
software background I advice you: do not buy it. You will spend more
time trying to fix it, than observing (That's why you bought it  isn't
it?). The finder is a red dot one. Through it you can only see only the
very bright stars. Even some of the align stars are not visible through
it. The mount of the finder is a plastic affair that you cannot align it
with the main telescope and stay in one place. Every time I go out to
observe I have to re-align the finder because is moving on its mount.
The tripod is so flexible that you think is made of rubber  It has given
a new meaning to the term "it flexes". The focuser (plastic of course)
moves up and down about 1/8" and when is fully extended is even worst
making focusing difficult if not impossible. Open the mount and tight up
ALL the screws. Half of them they were loose. All the bearings in the
mount are plastic with a lot of play. You cannot do anything to improve
them apart from making new bronze ones in a lathe. All the gears are
plastic. Check the encoder wheels. Most of them are belly dancing and
some of them are catching up to the encoders. Off course you can fix all
these problems and replace the parts that they do not work with
alternatives from other brands, but that will cost you 3-4 times the
value of the telescope. If you can save your money and go for a better
mount!!!!
 
Regards
 
George Ioannidis

From: richard seymour (rseymour@wolfenet.com)
>> I have recently purchase a Meade DS-2102 Telescope from the  Telescope 
>> Planet in UK.
>>
>> It has been bought after their recommendation and I thought that  
>> Meade would not put their name in a product that is crap.

Unfortunately, all of their products (save, perhaps, the Max Mount)
are "Design to a price point" and that occasionally demands
compromises in some areas.  Thus you'll find some models where
the optics are excellent yet the mount is wanting, and others
where the mount is acceptable yet the optics underperform.
(the only example of the latter that i can think of was their
"short" models a few years back which had a barlow lens in the
eyepiece holder)

>> It is a 4 refractor with the new DS mount and Autostar 497  controller.
>>
>> It looks like to be a discontinued model that it doesnt even exist  
>> in the Meades website

Meade's website frequently does not show models which were designed/built
exclusively for a limited set of distribution channels.  In the USA,
WalMart or Costco might order up thousands of a particular grouping
of "options" and that model may never appear on Meade's site.

The DS-2102 didn't appear in the 497's ROM file until v43Ea,
released in July 2006.  So it's quite new.

>> The telescope looks like to have an on board memory and clock chip
>> (On the telescope, not on the Autostar controller) as when you  switch 
>> on the power the Autostar loads Time, Date, Site and Telescope Model
 >>  from the  memory.

The Autostar handbox has the memory which retains Site and Model.
If the scope has an LNT module as the finder, or a -TC at the
end of the model number, then it does have a clock in or on the scope.

>> Inside the telescope there is a small battery that supplies power  to 
>> the internal clock.
>>
>> The telescope as it came had a terrible tracking and a lot of play  in 
>> the mount.
>>
>> You had more chances to find something in the sky with you eyes  than 
>> with the goto.
>>
>> After the usually mechanical treat (disassembly  clean  tight  
>> screws - adjusts nuts etc.) I have manage
>>  to minimize the play on the mount but not to eliminate it.

How -much- play does it have, quantitatively?
My ETX90-EC arrived with 3 degrees of Altitude slop, and 1 degree
of Azimuth.  Even so, it could consistently arrive within a quarter
degree of the target.

>> Next was the tracking problem. Even after the entire mechanical  slope 
>> has been minimized the telescope didnt want to track properly.
 >>  I have train the  motors according to your recommendations
>>  and there was a small improvement but I didnt had a way to check  
>> the values of the trained motors.
>>
>> I have loaded your patch kit V43.Ed and there you are. Now I can  
>> check what is going on.

It was trying to check the Train Drive results which led me to
write my first general-release patch kit.

>> After training again and checking the values I had a set of good  
>> average values that I have insert them to Autostar manually.

Unfortunately, Training does not -directly-  affect Tracking.
Training does affect the accuracy of your alignments, and in
an Alt/Az mounting, that has the secondary effect of affecting tracking.

>> I have also made a cable to supply power to the Autostar controller  
>> from the USB port of my laptop  very handy when you upload new  
>> software.
>>
>> Now a strange think:
>>
>> Your patch is supposed to add additional telescope models and I was  
>> especially interested in the German equatorial one.
>>
>>  When I was looking for it when the Autostar was connected to the  
>> telescope I couldnt find it.
>>
>> Today I have connected the Autostar direct in the laptop and had a  
>> look in the telescope models it was there but my existing model  
>> (DS2102) wasnt.
>>
>> It looks like that there are 2 sets of telescope models  One in  the 
>> Autostar and the other on the mount memory.
>>
>> The one on the mount memory supersede the one in the Autostar.
>>
>> And the question is it possible to have both sets? Or even better  to 
>> be able to choose which ones you want?
>>
>> How you can access the on board memory?

Unfortunately, you aren't properly assessing what's happening.

ALL of the memory involved is in the Autostar itself.

The Autostar (with v43Ed) knows about 36 different models.

At power-up, the Autostar sends an interrogation message to
the motor cards asking "what are you?"
Depending upon the reply to that, you are offered fixed subsets of
up to a dozen of those 30-odd models.  If it hears nothing back
(such as your USB hookup), then you see one list.  If it gets an
"A", you see a different list.   In 43Ed there appears to be
programming for at least six different groupings (some models
appear in multiple groups).

You can demonstrate this to yourself by taking note of which
models are offered with the scope attached, and which ones
are offered on the USB.
When on the USB, select a model which is not on the normal list.
Press [enter] to make it carry the ">" flag.
Now reattach it to the scope.  Check the models.
You will see that -none- of them are "selected".
That's because the Autostar is remembering your previous choice.
Now select a model which appears in -both- lists (if there is
one).  And you'll see it's selected in both USB and on-scope
arrangements.

My patch kit replaces the DS-70 with the 4504.
My -recent- patch kit -also- replaces the DS-2080 with the 4504,
to handle folks who have adapted the DS-2xxx series to GEM mounts.

Meade's model selection/offering programming makes it very difficult
for a patch to present -all- models at one go.
Andrew Johansen's MyScope program may let you specficially force
any model number you wish (the data is in EPROM address B617),
but that is less useful than simply manually setting the various
ratios and other parameters with proper values.
(MyScope can be found at http://members.optusnet.com.au/johansea )

>> Open the mount and tight up ALL the screws. Half of them they were  
>> loose.

I suspect that the particular unit you have missed some quality
control.  You might check another unit of the same model at the
dealer's store to see if it shares the same looseness.

have fun
-dick

And:

Thank you for your reply.

You are right about the way Autostar stores the telescope models.
Below is a list with the models Autostar shows when connected to the
mount and when connected only to the power (from the USB).

Autostar connected to the mount:

DS-2060, DS-2070, DS-2076, DS-2080,
DS-2090, DS-2102, DS-2114, DS-2130,
DSX-90, DSX-102, DSX-125,
ETX-60, ETX-70, ETX-80.

Autostar powered from USB - No connection to the mount:

DS-60, DS-70, DS-80, DS-90, DS-114, DS-117,
LXD 55/75 127 Ac, LXD 55/75 152 Ac, LXD 55/75 6 NEW,
LXD 55/75 8 NEW, LXD 55/75 10 NEW, LXD 55/75 8 SC,
ETX-60, ETX-70, ETX-80, ETX-105, ETX-125


Also: this model it doesn't have any specific letters after the model
name (LNT or TC) here in UK but it has internal clock.

The link to MyScope (http://members.optusnet.com.au/johansea) looks
dead. Is there any other link I can try?

Thank you in advance,

George....

And for me... and the -specific- link for downloading MyScope is:
http://members.optusnet.com.au/johansea/

(it helps when reporting "doesn't work" if you specify the actual
error message you're getting... "Not found" means that the URL
may be mis-typed, and "Page not found" means the address is correct,
but that the specific page citation is in error)

have fun
--dick

And:

It looks like the link does not work in this part of the world.
I have try in 3 different computers with Internet Explorer and Firefox
and I get: "Internet Explorer cannot display the webpage".

On a live search I have done I can find the page but again you cannot
access it. You get the same message.

George.....

Thank you Mike...

George

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